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50. Ian Brady All round Mr Nice Guy



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#161 Lord Fellatio Nelson

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 06:50 PM

View PostPhantom, on 18 August 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

View PostJamesB, on 18 August 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

No need for the poll - Winnie Johnson has died. Just breaking now

That's really sad that she passed away without being able to find her son's remains and give him a proper burial.
I hope she comes back to haunt Brady to the end of his days.
That may be all irrelevant now.
If you want to believe that the end of our lives are not the end but just one door closing and another opening, her boy was there to meet her when she passed over or summat.
Nearly 50 years of living the torture she lived, death is a blessed relief, she is with her son again.
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#162 the_engineer

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 06:58 PM

View PostLord Fellatio Nelson, on 18 August 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

View PostPhantom, on 18 August 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

View PostJamesB, on 18 August 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

No need for the poll - Winnie Johnson has died. Just breaking now

That's really sad that she passed away without being able to find her son's remains and give him a proper burial.
I hope she comes back to haunt Brady to the end of his days.
That may be all irrelevant now.
If you want to believe that the end of our lives are not the end but just one door closing and another opening, her boy was there to meet her when she passed over or summat.
Nearly 50 years of living the torture she lived, death is a blessed relief, she is with her son again.

Well said!!

50 years of torture is nothing compared to the eternity of torture coming to brady .
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#163 Paul Bearer

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 07:06 PM

View Postthe_engineer, on 18 August 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

50 years of torture is nothing compared to the eternity of torture coming to brady .

One can only hope.
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#164 Octopus of Odstock

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 08:39 PM

View PostLord Fellatio Nelson, on 18 August 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

lThat may be all irrelevant now.
If you want to believe that the end of our lives are not the end but just one door closing and another opening, her boy was there to meet her when she passed over or summat.
Nearly 50 years of living the torture she lived, death is a blessed relief, she is with her son again.


Exactly what I was thinking earlier - and it made me smile despite the sad news.

I really do hope that Brady lives for a long, long time, preferably with Parkinsons and MS and has a thoroughly miserable 20 or so years left to live.

#165 Magere Hein

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 12:24 AM

I am, as an outsider, a bit surprised at the anger and hatred expressed in previous contributions. My surprise has several reasons, but before I go into those reasons I want to state that I have no love or respect for Brady, who is without any doubt a horrible person. Justice and public safety demand that he's locked up for life.

Now those reasons:
  • The moors murders happened when I was a toddler. I doubt any of the posters were adults when those ghastly things happended, if they were alive at all. I appreciate that one's presence isn't a necessary condition for shock and disgust about events, yet it seems to me that whatever drives a poster to express their anger has elements of fashion and media hype.
  • The morality of expressing one's hope of nasty thing happenning to Brady is, in my view, dodgy. My morality obliges me to treat anybody as I want to be treated by others. As I'm in no way looking forward to death, violence or disease, I cannot wish those things on anybody else, Brady included.
  • I have no firm opinion about the existence of an afterlife, other than that the lack of evidence suggests there's none. From that point of view speculation about Brady's fate after death seems rather pointless.
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#166 Lord Fellatio Nelson

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 10:51 AM

View PostMagere Hein, on 19 August 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

I am, as an outsider, a bit surprised at the anger and hatred expressed in previous contributions. My surprise has several reasons, but before I go into those reasons I want to state that I have no love or respect for Brady, who is without any doubt a horrible person. Justice and public safety demand that he's locked up for life.

Now those reasons:
  • The moors murders happened when I was a toddler. I doubt any of the posters were adults when those ghastly things happended, if they were alive at all. I appreciate that one's presence isn't a necessary condition for shock and disgust about events, yet it seems to me that whatever drives a poster to express their anger has elements of fashion and media hype.
  • The morality of expressing one's hope of nasty thing happenning to Brady is, in my view, dodgy. My morality obliges me to treat anybody as I want to be treated by others. As I'm in no way looking forward to death, violence or disease, I cannot wish those things on anybody else, Brady included.
  • I have no firm opinion about the existence of an afterlife, other than that the lack of evidence suggests there's none. From that point of view speculation about Brady's fate after death seems rather pointless.
regards,
Hein

You make some fair, if not suprising observations Hein.
I suspect,If you took your stance on the the age related issue to its extreme, precious few of us would actually "get it" with the "Hitler was a bit of a bastard" fraternity.
How could I, a middle aged man, begin to understand the absolute evil of a man and his regime if I wasnt there at the time?
I dont think being an adult at the time of the Moors murderers has much to do with the revulsion and hatred of the people who were pivotal to it all.
I have grown up, acutely aware of the evil twosome and, consequently, understand just how and why they are riviled by our Country/society.
They are the embodiment of evil, tangible evidence ( if you want to see it that way) that the Devil exists, Child snatchers could live in your street and that people, ordinary looking people, God, WOMEN as well as men, are quite capable of extreme evil, even if they look like ordinary people and do jobs like Secretarys ( Hindleys job) Postmen or whatever. THAT is the salient point Hein, these people were ordinary people who did unspeakable things to innocent children for their own sexual gratification.
At their trial the prosecution played recordings that Hindley and Brady made, recordings of their torture of one of their victims, Lesley Anne Downey, recordings that are still too harrowing to ever be fully released. Just what did they get out of taping a childs screams, begging for her mummy while being sadistically tortured? We know that everbody involved in that trial was deeply affected by it. Those two didnt just destroy the lives of their victims and families they probably destroyed, to a lesser degree, an age of innocence that this country had, evil wasnt just for wars, it was on our own doorsteps too.
Brady? I understand peoples wishes for great harm to come to him, although from a personal perspective, I dont believe in the death penalty because people like Brady would have escaped justice long ago. As it is, he has had to spend the last 46 years in a prison cell playing cat and mouse with his captors ( us) and its been a game he could never possibly win, even if he did know where Keith Bennetts body is , which he doesnt.
Anyway, thats one response to your post, I dont know if everybody else would agree with my points but, perhaps, if you are not British, you cannot really understand the whole thrust of how our society thinks towards Ian Brady.
Life after death is a moot point. You either believe or you dont, I do. The debate, however, is fuggin pointless coz I cant prove that it does and you cant prove that it doesnt!! ;)
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#167 Lard Bazaar

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 12:36 PM

People, we are straying into the dangerous territory of a 'serious and intelligent' conversation here, careful now!

My tuppence worth - I think the fact that some of us weren't alive when the Moors Murders occurred is irrelevant - that fact makes the events no less horrific in my opinion, and does not preclude people from feeling emotion of whatever kind about it.

Treat others as you would like to be treated? - mostly I do that, but if I were in a room with somebody that had tortured my child to death in the most hideous of fashions, I fear I would not be able to stop myself beating the living shit out of the cunt - but I suppose, like the 'would you kill your terminally ill family member' question, one cannot know what they would do until they were in that position.

My views differ on a daily basis about whether people like Brady should be put to death - sometimes I think it's better to make them suffer for years and years, but other days I think there is no place in a civilised society for people like him so do the straightforward and sensible thing and eliminate them at the earliest opportunity. But he's had nigh on 50 years to rot in prison - kill the bastard now, I say, and have done with it. In Daily-Mail mode, why the fuck should I pay taxes to keep somebody like him alive, when my money could be going to people like my dementia-ridden nan and paralysed-by-stroke grandad, who really need help from the state?

This is obviously a very emotive subject that will attract many different points of view, a good healthy debate!

#168 msc

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 03:17 PM

View PostLard Bazaar, on 19 August 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

People, we are straying into the dangerous territory of a 'serious and intelligent' conversation here, careful now!

My tuppence worth - I think the fact that some of us weren't alive when the Moors Murders occurred is irrelevant - that fact makes the events no less horrific in my opinion, and does not preclude people from feeling emotion of whatever kind about it.

Treat others as you would like to be treated? - mostly I do that, but if I were in a room with somebody that had tortured my child to death in the most hideous of fashions, I fear I would not be able to stop myself beating the living shit out of the cunt - but I suppose, like the 'would you kill your terminally ill family member' question, one cannot know what they would do until they were in that position.

My views differ on a daily basis about whether people like Brady should be put to death - sometimes I think it's better to make them suffer for years and years, but other days I think there is no place in a civilised society for people like him so do the straightforward and sensible thing and eliminate them at the earliest opportunity. But he's had nigh on 50 years to rot in prison - kill the bastard now, I say, and have done with it. In Daily-Mail mode, why the fuck should I pay taxes to keep somebody like him alive, when my money could be going to people like my dementia-ridden nan and paralysed-by-stroke grandad, who really need help from the state?

This is obviously a very emotive subject that will attract many different points of view, a good healthy debate!

I myself am quite a pacifistic type, but I suspect I would do the same if stuck in a room with someone who had done the same. There's a Clarence Darrow quote I like to refer to, which I'll have to paraphrase here: "I don't wish death on people, but I've read many an obituary with satisfaction." I admit this is a flawed reaction, but I am a flawed human being, much like most of us.

I wasn't alive during the Moors Murders, but I have been alive to see Brady's machinations in the press, and the way he toyed with the surviving family of his victims. It's still a living memory event in the way older crimes aren't. (See also the nation's fascination with Ronnie Biggs!) Even if it wasn't, I'd say it was horrible enough to have to be remembered as part of history.

I tend to see the world in fairly extensive shades of grey rather than black and white, so someone like Brady who seems to do what he did (and does) for fun... well, it's as close to a definition of evil as I'm willing to tread, and is rather disturbing. Even so, it's cases like this that harden my views against the death penalty. That in theory is a punishment that if we dish it out, we must be rational in a case, and this is one that makes even the most rational tempestuous. Beyond the cost issues, the chances of innocence in cases in generals (not here), I retain the strong belief, possibly naively, that if the State kills people, then we as a people are falling to their level.

Re- afterlife, that's very much a personal thing to the individual.
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#169 Rotten Ali

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 03:45 PM

I can't help but feel that there has to be a limit to how much we as a society can punish anyone. Many may think that life in prison is the correct route to take, but then the type of crime has to have a bearing on the type of sentence handed down.

In cases of "murder-most-horrid" (as I think judge Lord Denning put it) and with concrete evidence, I feel a life sentence should contain two elliments. Firstly a lengthy prison term in solitary confinement without any joy or comfort. (I've a 12 year term in mind, and this gives time to flush out any evidence that the trial was working with insubstantial evidence) Secondly a termination of their life via either being pumped full of drugs or being sent to the gallows for hanging. These people who are proved to have performed evil acts should have no right to be a part of our world and need to be harshly punished and finally done away with before the cost mounts.

The only problemis that, in the case of those of us in the UK, is that this would need the UK to pull out of the EU and remove our links with the European Court and that is not going to happen as I can see without a crazy new exreamist political party coming to power.
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#170 the_engineer

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 04:54 PM

View PostMagere Hein, on 19 August 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

I am, as an outsider, a bit surprised at the anger and hatred expressed in previous contributions. My surprise has several reasons, but before I go into those reasons I want to state that I have no love or respect for Brady, who is without any doubt a horrible person. Justice and public safety demand that he's locked up for life.

Now those reasons:
  • The moors murders happened when I was a toddler. I doubt any of the posters were adults when those ghastly things happended, if they were alive at all. I appreciate that one's presence isn't a necessary condition for shock and disgust about events, yet it seems to me that whatever drives a poster to express their anger has elements of fashion and media hype.
  • The morality of expressing one's hope of nasty thing happenning to Brady is, in my view, dodgy. My morality obliges me to treat anybody as I want to be treated by others. As I'm in no way looking forward to death, violence or disease, I cannot wish those things on anybody else, Brady included.
  • I have no firm opinion about the existence of an afterlife, other than that the lack of evidence suggests there's none. From that point of view speculation about Brady's fate after death seems rather pointless.
regards,
Hein

I can understand were you're coming from and alot of people unfortunately are influenced by the media , but from my point of view (as msc said) the way he recorded the children being tortured and teased the family strikes anyone deep down. Whether you hear it from the media , word of mouth or anywhere else. I guess why me and some others would like to see him suffer is because maybe then he can understand the pain and the fear his victims felt and with guys like brady sometimes its the only language they understand .

With regards to the afterlife I do believe in it. The world and universe seems to have cycle like patterns to it from what we have observed so far. I believe the key to unlocking the universe and many unanswered questions is finding the cycle and pattern. For example the earth revolves around the sun, it rains then the sun absorbs the water the clouds fill up and it rains again.Even a human heartbeat and our circulation system is a cycle.That's why I believe people are born and die and then are born again. However someone evil like brady won't get the chance to be born again because his spirit (whether you believe in a higher being choosing or a type spiritual natural selection ) is too corrupted and damaged to find another body or maybe all the people that he hurt their spirits are waiting for him when he dies. That is what I believe is hell not the fiery one though I could be wrong :D.

I always found this video as kind of proof to the afterlife, one of the best video's I ever saw. Depends on the person though.


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#171 maryportfuncity

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 06:21 PM

"Re- afterlife, that's very much a personal thing to the individual."


Hell, yeah!
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#172 Magere Hein

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 07:38 PM

I knew my post would get some lengthy replies, there's no surprise there. :)

I won't comment on everyting in all responses, here are a few things that caught my attention:

View PostLord Fellatio Nelson, on 19 August 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

I suspect,If you took your stance on the the age related issue to its extreme, precious few of us would actually "get it" with the "Hitler was a bit of a bastard" fraternity. How could I, a middle aged man, begin to understand the absolute evil of a man and his regime if I wasnt there at the time?
I dont think being an adult at the time of the Moors murderers has much to do with the revulsion and hatred of the people who were pivotal to it all.
and

View PostLard Bazaar, on 19 August 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

My tuppence worth - I think the fact that some of us weren't alive when the Moors Murders occurred is irrelevant - that fact makes the events no less horrific in my opinion, and does not preclude people from feeling emotion of whatever kind about it.

The revulsion Brady's crimes cause in us is universal in place and time, as it should. That they cause much stronger emotions in the British public I also understand. I first learned about the moors murders in this forum. To give an indication of their visibility in the Netherlands: the Dutch Wikipedia has a short article about Myra Hindley, none about Ian Brady or the murders. The murders and trial must have been reported in the Dutch media, but I have no idea to what extent. When Hindley died there was some media attention. I suppose that, reversely, few Brits will be aware of any Dutch murderers, other than those of high-profile victims, even though they caused similar emotions in Dutch society.

In general, public outcry over ghaslty crimes and criminals tends to diminish over time. In Brady's case this doesn't seem to happen. Brady has done his bit to stay in the picture, as have politicians and the media. That was, and is, my point.

View PostLard Bazaar, on 19 August 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

Treat others as you would like to be treated? - mostly I do that, but if I were in a room with somebody that had tortured my child to death in the most hideous of fashions, I fear I would not be able to stop myself beating the living shit out of the cunt - but I suppose, like the 'would you kill your terminally ill family member' question, one cannot know what they would do until they were in that position.

I have no way of knowing what I would do then, but the thing is: none of the posters, me included, is in such circumstances in relation to Brady. If somebody does act in personal retaliation I understand that, even though it's not the right thing to do. I well remember Marianne Bachmeier, a German woman who shot the suspected murderer of her daugter in court in 1981. Her trial led to considerable media attention, even in the Netherlands. Eventually she was convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to six years in prison, of which she served three.

View Postthe_engineer, on 19 August 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

I always found this video as kind of proof to the afterlife, one of the best video's I ever saw. Depends on the person though.

Ah yes, near-death experience. There are problems with that. It's anecdotal evidence. I have no reason to assume those anecdotes are not sincere, a very close friend of mine, who was and is an atheist, reported one after surgery. But as Alan L. Leshner once remarked: "The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence.' Thousands of people must have lived through circumstances similar to those of people reporting a near-death experience and don't report anyting out of the ordinary. The most serious problem is, however, what does it mean? A person who had an near-death experience cannot share it. There may well be a natural explanation for it, but unfortunately one we don't know. Anyway, my take on the afterlife is: if there is one, I'll find out. If there isn't, nobody will.

My opinion regarding the death penalty I expressed in 2005 in the aptly named topic "The Death Penalty". I haven't changed my mind since.

regards,
Hein
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#173 Bibliogryphon

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 12:55 PM

The UK media have a fascination with this topic from Dramas to documentries and a full report everytime Brady does or says anything but even if Brady dies this will not go again. The Moors Murderers will go down alongside Jack the Ripper and Doctor Crippin in UK folk lore.

No judgement but I think this is true.

Fred West and Harold Shipman suggest to me the death penalty is the easy way out.
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#174 JR976evil

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 03:02 PM

View PostBibliogryphon, on 20 August 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:



Fred West and Harold Shipman suggest to me the death penalty is the easy way out.

Indeed, we are better off without it. Seems more like retribution than justice, isn't going to bring the victims back. Essentially is just state-sanctioned murder, not that it's coming back in any case.

Do serial killers even ultimately care about their own fate??

#175 maryportfuncity

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:55 PM

Serial killing is more about power for the killer than any individual hatred of those killed; apart from anything else that often explains how children and prostitutes (i.e. two groups vulnerable by their lack of power and/or inability to fight back at the moment of attack), are over-represented amongst the victims of serial killers. Shipman and others in the medical professional similarly tend pick the most vulnerable targets. You can get a nice t-shirt featuring a pastiche of The Deer Hunter film poster with Shipman's face and the title changed to The Old Dear Hunter; 'nuff said.

So - since they're often self-obsessed and power-hungry - serial killers care a great deal about their own fate. Some massacre merchants, like Michael Ryan, much prefer to take control and kill themselves. Don't be fooled by Brady's apparent attempts to off himself, it's mainly power-plays designed to make others fight him, expend resources etc. He has very few ways of getting prolonged attention now, and he uses every option he has from his limited choices.
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#176 Bibliogryphon

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 11:47 AM

Hein's posts have got me thinking and last night I could not think of a single multiple murder from a non-English speaking nation (with the exception of Brevik, but I thought that was because it was recent and politically motivated). Do seriel killers tend to get reported outside of their own media?
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#177 JR976evil

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 11:59 AM

View PostBibliogryphon, on 21 August 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

Hein's posts have got me thinking and last night I could not think of a single multiple murder from a non-English speaking nation (with the exception of Brevik, but I thought that was because it was recent and politically motivated). Do seriel killers tend to get reported outside of their own media?

Why certainly, notable instances would be Russia's Andrei Chikatilo, aka the Rostov Ripper, and Belgian child killer Marc Dutroux.

#178 myf

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 12:06 PM

Japan tends to do a nasty line in serial killers/multiple murderers. I think they sometimes get coverage in the UK (and presumably other places too) but they don't usually stick in the mind as readily. A few in places such as South America get mentions occasionally.

#179 Bibliogryphon

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 12:52 PM

View PostJR976evil, on 21 August 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

View PostBibliogryphon, on 21 August 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

Hein's posts have got me thinking and last night I could not think of a single multiple murder from a non-English speaking nation (with the exception of Brevik, but I thought that was because it was recent and politically motivated). Do seriel killers tend to get reported outside of their own media?

Why certainly, notable instances would be Russia's Andrei Chikatilo, aka the Rostov Ripper, and Belgian child killer Marc Dutroux.

Now you mention it I recognise Marc Dutroux's name but I would not have been able to summon it and this case was noticable because it was linked to corruption at high levels.

I notice Mark Chapman is up for parole again - another person who sparks fierce debate but he only killed one person!
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#180 Magere Hein

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:17 PM

Interestingly, there's quite a row in Belgium at the moment about Michelle Martin, wife of Dutroux at the time of his crimes. In 2004, eight years after she was arrested, she was sentenced to 30 years in prison for murder, accessory to murder and kidnapping. A court in Mons decided on 31 juli 2012 to grant her conditional early release. This decision is now being challenged by, amongs others, Jean Lambrecks, father of one of Dutroux's victims. She's still in jail.

Some English language news sources reporting on this The Huffington Post, The Daily Mail, BBC and The Torygraph.

regards,
Hein

Edited by Magere Hein, 21 August 2012 - 01:24 PM.
Added English news sources.

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